Excerpt from the book “The Olympic Deceit of the ‘Divine Baron’ – Pierre de Coubertin”
by Ljubodrag Simonović. E-
OLYMPISM AND FASCISM
As early as 1929, at the time of the great recession, “father” of the modern Olympic Games Pierre de Coubertin expressed his inclination towards authoritarian regimes, namely his discontent with the inefficiency of the capitalist system in its dealing with the working class :
"First of all, it was necessary to establish the International
Olympic Committee with its basic rights, that should have been acknowledged by all
the nations. This was not easy, because the Constitution of the Committee was opposed
to the ideas of the time. It discarded the principle of delegation, so dear to our
parliamentary democracies -
It should also be noted that Coubertin was cordially accepted and his works published in fascist Germany, in spite of being "a great French patriot", a fact important at the time of German revanchism. Theodor Lewald, the president of the Organizing Committee of the Berlin Olympics, wrote of Coubertin at the end of his Introduction to "Olympische Erinnerungen", published in Berlin in 1938:
"He understood and enthusiastically saluted the development of the
new Germany under her Great Führer". (2)
The lecture on the Berlin Olympics delivered by Coubertin on German radio August 4, 1935, testifies that this is not merely a polite exaggeration:
"I was honoured to accept the invitation to give the first lecture on the
importance of the Olympic Games, as their founder and the President
of Honour. I think that the best way to answer the question is to
explain my original ideas and the philosophical basis upon which I
tried to build my work. With great interest I am following the preparations
for the XI Games in this fourth year of the X modern Olympiad. These
preparations are based upon an excellent plan and are executed after an
absolutely clear total idea, with no less care paid to details. I am under
an impression that the whole of Germany, from her Leader to the most
humble participant, wishes with all its heart to make the celebration in
1936 one of the most beautiful that the world has ever seen, although London,
Stockholm, Amsterdam and Los Angeles produced real miracles. In a
year's time, Christmas bells will announce the appearance of the athletes from
all around the world at the Berlin Stadium. Today I wish to thank the German
government and its people for their efforts in honour of the XI Olympiad." (3)
Coubertin expressed his ultimate support to the Nazi regime in his broadcasted speech held at the closing ceremony of the Berlin Olympics, the speech that he, himself, later published. This is what he said:
"Guard the holy flame!
The XI Olympic Games will soon be a memory, but what a powerful
and rich memory!
Above all, the memory of beauty. From that moment thirty years ago,
when I summoned a conference on arts, literature and sport, aimed to establish
a permanent relation between the renewed Olympics and the creations of mind
and spirit, the realisation of this ideal has been helped by many prudent efforts,
from Stockholm to Los Angeles. Now Berlin is sanctifying it by some daring
innovations, completely successful ones, such as the relay carrying of the holly
torch from Olympia and the magnificent celebration at the monumental stadium
on the first night of the Games, whose creator is my ingenious friend
and enthusiast Carl Diem.
Memory of courage, because courage was necessary to overcome the difficulties’
Führer met having posed the request "Wir wollen bauen!" ("We want to build!"),
and to confront the disloyal and perfidious attacks that try to stop the progressive
creative enterprise (referring to the boycott of the Berlin Games).
Finally, memory of hope, because understanding stronger than death itself
was forged under the symbolical flag with the five circles... "Freude, Tochter aus..."
(The opening words of Schiller's "Ode of Joy" which was a part of "the artistic
programme" at the Berlin opening). The history and the struggle will continue,
but science will gradually replace the dangerous ignorance; mutual understanding
will replace blind hatred. Thus the building I built for half a century will be
consolidated. And you, athletes, do not forget the flame lit by the Sun, brought
to you from Olympia to light our epoch. Guard it deep in your souls, to make
it reappear at the other end of the world, in four years time, when we shall
celebrate the XII Olympics at the faraway shores of the great Pacific." (4)
The reference is made to the fascist Japan. Another great gesture of the IOC!
When speaking of the “perfidious attacks” on the Nazi Olympic Games, Coubertin was also thinking of the attempt on the part of members of the international brigades, the Spanish republican combatants, to organize the “Olympiada popular” in Barcelona in July 1936 as a response to the Nazi Olympic Games. The troops of fascist General Franco prevented these “Peoples Games” being held.
Here is what Heinrich Mann said on the eve of the Nazi Olympic Games :
“Free peoples do not have the right to support the Berlin Olympic Games.
(…) Nazism does not see man other than as an instrument for achieving
its barbarian goals. Can such a regime, based on forced labour and slavery
of the masses, a regime that is preparing for war and exists merely through
mendacious propaganda, respect peaceful sport and free sportsmen? Believe
me, those international sportsmen who go to Berlin are nothing more than
gladiators, prisoners and entertainers for the dictator who already considers
himself master of the world. Finally, I should like to stress that the success
of the Olympic Games will help to prolong Hitler’s regime for a time. It will
give it new possibilities and strength. It will reinforce its prestige…” (5)
Another clue to Coubertin's attitude towards the Nazi regime in
Germany may be found in his interview given to Andre Lang and published in the French
paper "Le journal" on August 27, 1936. The motive for this conversation was the article
by Jacques Goddet in "L'Auto", under the title borrowed from Emile Zola -
"The Games are perverted? The Olympic idea is sacrificed to propaganda?
That is utterly untrue. The magnificent success of the Berlin Games served
perfectly the idea of Olympics. Only the French, or almost only the French, are playing Cassandra..."
"The fact that the Games in 1936 are illuminated by Hitler strength and
discipline causes excitement in France. How could it be different? On the
contrary, we should wish that the Games would always be so well organized,
that every nation takes part in their preparing during the four years." (6)
Not only the left-
"It is not an athlete who is celebrated any more. Instead, the whole nation hails
its colours, the victory of the race, the reigning system, the army... The German
audience breaks the elementary rules of politeness. It should never happen again
that one nation uses the Games to humiliate other nations." (7)
Having published this article, the Paris journal was not allowed to report from the Games and its journalists were not allowed to enter Germany. (8)
Coubertin had a special reason to be enthusiastic about the Berlin
Games. The organizers of the Games had a giant bell casted and decorated with the
figure of an eagle, not a very friendly looking one, holding the Olympic circles
in his claws. At the rim of the bell there was a message : "Ich rufe die Jugend der
Welt" ("I invite the youth of the world"). The Olympic Stadium in Berlin thus became
a kind of a modern shrine in which the most spectacular of all the religious rites
of the New Age was to be performed -
As far as the "artistic programme" of the Berlin Olympiad is concerned, we have already stated that Coubertin had specially paid tribute to his friend Carl Diem for organizing the "magnificent celebration" of the opening. What did this "magnificent celebration" look like in fact? This is how Richard Mandell described the occasion:
"The most famous living German musician Richard Strauss, dressed in
white, conducts the great orchestra and the chorus of three thousand
voices performing "Deutchland über Alles" and "Horst Wessell Lied",
and the new "Olympic Hymn", written specially for the occasion by
the old composer, the cultural hero of both Wilhelm's and Weimar
Anyhow, Carl Diem was proud of "his" Olympics all his life and emphasized its "artistic programme". Unfortunately, on Coubertin's request, this programme contained Beethoven’s "IX symphony", used as a cover for this fascist festival of death. Following the same principle, the concentration camps may be described as "educational institutions", since the members of the "lower race" were welcomed by music and the camp gate bore the inscription : "Arbeit macht Frei!" ("Labour liberates!").
Coubertin's intention to bequeath his whole literary inheritance
to the Third Reich and his wish that the fascist Germany should establish the International
Olympic Institute, a developing centre of the international Olympic movement, further
describe his exhilaration over the Nazi regime in Germany. He openly entrusted Hitler
and his "super-
"On March 16, 1937, he (Coubertin) made a suggestion to the German
government, related to the sport-
Games of 1936 in Berlin, that the Government should establish the
International Olympic Institute, Centre d' Etudes Olympiques, to which
he would bequeath his "papiers, documents" and unfinished plans concerning
the entirety of the newly awakened Olympics." (10)
Hitler's decision to keep the Olympic Games in Germany forever was one of the motives for such an initiative by Coubertin. After the Berlin Olympics, Hitler gave a customarily megalomaniacal order to his architect Albert Speer to design plans for a new Olympic Stadium (Nürnberg), for more than 400 000 people, due to be finished by 1945.
"Doesn't matter", said Hitler, "the 1940 Games will be held in Tokyo. But
after that they will always be held in Germany, on this stadium. And then we
shall prescribe the measurements of the athletic field". (11)
This is a part of the explanation why "the great French patriot" Coubertin, who concluded his early works with a cry "Vive la France!", bequeathed his works to the fascist Germany, the biggest enemy of the French. Coubertin saw Hitler and his fascist regime as a possibility to incarnate his own philosophy completely. Hitler's conception "Wir wollen bauen!", the practice of the fascist regime, made the perfect affirmation to Coubertin that his deed and his ideas would live in future.
As far as the question "Did he know of the fascist crimes?" is concerned, it must be pointed out that Coubertin, while living in Switzerland, had an opportunity to closely witness these misdeeds. Besides, the Nazis started building concentration camps right after they came to power, and without any discretion.
"The concentration camps existed in Germany from 1933," says Arthur Morse
in his book "While 6 Million Died", "and that was no secret for the world. As
we have seen, the existence of Dachau was made public at the beginning of
Hitler's reign. . . . In August 1933, "Neuer Vorwärts", the paper published by
the German socialists in exile, estimated that there were eighty thousand
prisoners in 65 camps." (12) "By the end of 1933," Morse says further,
"the reports on murders and molestations multiplied. Lord Marley, Deputy
Speaker of the House of Lords, estimated that two thousand murders
were committed in Germany during (that) year." (13)
There are other details of Hitler's "constructing" design that
Coubertin unconditionally supported, at the same time fervently attacking the opponents
of Hitler's regime. The brutal elimination of the members of the SA troupes on June
30, 1934 ("The Night of the Long Knives") ; the persecution of the Jews, culminating
in Nurnberg Laws of the Race on September 15, 1935, according to which the Jews were
deprived of civil rights (Hitler's idea first announced in the "Programme of the
Coubertin's contacts with Hermann Esser further testify to the
extent he embraced Nazi propaganda. According to historian Maser, Esser was "among
the most influential of Hitler's collaborators in the National-
"During my stay in Switzerland last month, I was advised by many parties
to visit the elderly founder of the Olympics, Baron de Coubertin. This
gesture could be very fruitful, since Baron de Coubertin is not exactly
popular either in Switzerland or in his native France. That is just why I
decided not only to visit the Baron in Geneva, but also to invite this
widely celebrated man to a German sanatorium. When I came to Geneva,
the German consul informed me that the Baron was not in good health.
He was willing to see me in spite of it. His accepting the invitation to
Germany depended completely on who was to address the invitation.
During my visit to Baron Coubertin I was under an impression I was
talking to a dying man. I thought it appropriate to convey to this old
gentlemen, who spoke of the Führer and Reich with such an enthusiasm,
the best regards from the Führer and his invitation to stay in a sanatorium
in Germany. Fortunately, it seems that Baron Coubertin's health is getting
much better so that he is considering the possibility of coming to Germany.
I have already made all the arrangements for Baron and his family to be
well tended and taken care of in Baden-
Tourist Office. His presence here would be very important for the German
tourism. I consider these propaganda visits of utmost importance and I hope
that the Führer will approve of my invitation to Baron Coubertin." (16)
Coubertin wrote to Hitler, believing that the Führer himself had invited him to Germany:
I was deeply moved by the visit of the State Minister H.Esser on behalf of
Your Excellence and I hurriedly express my gratitude. Germany thus joins –
and in the most splendid way – the celebration of my jubilee marked on
January 20 at the University of Lausanne. On that occasion I was invited to
crown my fifty-
and improvements. Germany has shown appreciation of my work on several
occasions and I owe her my deepest gratitude. I hope my health will allow me
to consider and accept the kindest invitation handed to me on behalf of
Your Excellence. I take it as another proof of Your kindness.
I humbly ask Your Excellence to accept my respect and deepest loyalty.
Geneva, March 17, 1937 Pierre de Coubertin " (17)
It should also be added that, on January 28, 1936, Hitler accepted the motion to name after Coubertin the place in front of the southern entrance into the Olympic Stadium (18) An interesting statement was made concerning this matter by Carl Diem in 1946, that the only monument built in honour of Coubertin is in Germany, and that a place there bears his name. (19)
At the same time, the Nazis nominated Coubertin for the Nobel Prize, in opposition to Karl von Ossietzky who was imprisoned as Hitler's opponent but well respected by the world's democracies. Coubertin accepted the nomination, hoping it would be supported by the Norwegian Olympic Committee. The Norwegian Peace Committee gave the Prize to Ossietzky and Coubertin, disappointed, wrote to Hans von Tschammer und Osten, the Nazi Sports Minister:
"I know that in the last fifty years I have contributed to peace more by
promoting international sport, than by giving useless speeches and
performances. Your acknowledgement in that respect is ever so precious
to me." (20)
Speaking about the money Coubertin received from Nazis, one should
mention that the better part of the 500 000 golden franc estate he possessed when
he started his voyage to Olympus, was nearly gone in the last years of his life.
In order to help him, "Pierre-
However, Coubertin is not the only "Olympic gentleman" fascinated by fascism. After the October Revolution, the development of the revolutionary movement in Europe and the great recession in 1929 – which all broke the myth of the "free competition society" and showed what hopes workers could cherish regarding their employers at a time of peril – Hitler appeared as "the saviour of (bourgeois) civilization" from "the plague of communism". The western governments, specially in the USA and Great Britain, were delighted by "the determination" (read brutality) Hitler showed in his crusades against communists. Trying to justify the Nazi terror in Germany, the American consul Kehl wrote in his letter of March 31, 1933:
"One must admit that the National-
the world by breaking down communism in Germany. As far as destroying of
the communist plague in some other countries, this could be a positive effect." (22)
"Although Consul Kehl was alone in his reporting from Germany, his
conviction was widely accepted by the State Department". (23)
Morse also described the attitude towards fascism expressed by General Sherrill, the American delegate at the IOC:
"Judging the general resentment against fascism, he (Sherrill) praised Mussolini
as ‘a man I've known and respected for a long time, a gallant father who sent
his own two sons in the fiercest battle’ (here Sherrill refers to Mussolini's
"famous campaign" in Ethiopia). The general gloomily added that he would
wish Mussolini came to USA and dealt with communism there as he had done
in Italy." (24)
There is another "Olympic gentleman", besides Sherrill, who was sent
from America to Europe in order to examine if Nazi Germany was suitable to organize
the Olympic Games – Avery Brundage, the President of the American Olympic Committee
at the time, and later the President of IOC. He was Coubertin's great admirer and
famous for his anti-
"Some Jews must realize that they cannot use these Olympics as an
instrument in their boycott of the Nazis". (26)
As to the "incident" with Jesse Owens, there exists a version of
the story that says Hitler did not refuse to congratulate Owens because of his attitude
towards the black man, but because of some protocol problems. Count Baillet-
"A few months after the obvious remilitarization of the Rhine zone,
Hitler rejoiced at the harmonic atmosphere at the Olympic Games. He thought
that the international hostility towards National-
suspended once and for all. He gave orders to do everything possible to create
an impression of peaceable Germany in the face of numerous important guests.
He himself attended the athletic contests with vivid excitement. Each of the
strangely numerous German victories made him extremely joyful. But he
was also enraged with a series of victories of that fabulous black American
runner Jesse Owens. (Here is where Speer, Hitler's devoted follower till the
very last days of his regime, once more tries to point out he was "different".)
People whose ancestors came from the jungle must be primitive, said Hitler,
shrugging his shoulders; their body is stronger than the body of civilized whites.
They make an unfair competition and therefore they must be excluded from the
future Games." (30)
The IOC wanted above all to acquire the formal cover in public for
the Olympics being held in Nazi Germany – to prove that the Olympic movement as well
as the Berlin Games "had nothing to do with politics". The "details" about the participation
of the Jewish contestants at the Games, as other facts demonstrate – Baillet-
And that is not all. When fascist Japan refused to organize the
Olympic Games in 1940, due to be held in Tokyo – in order to advance freely against
the Chinese people and prepare the Far East campaigns – the IOC frantically tried
to find a country willing to organize the Games on the eve of the War. After searching
in vain, the IOC addressed the Nazis. Hitler was once more asked to prepare the Winter
Games in Garmisch-
The Berlin Games were the competition between the fascist regimes (Germany, Japan, Italy) and the “democratic” systems (USA, Great Britain, France). The fascists triumphed : Germany did better than the United States for the first time in history; Japan beat England, an Italy won more medals than France. The fascist fanatics saw it as providence and the war could begin.
During World War II the Belgian Count Baillet-
The real nature of the IOC is illustrated by its structure after
the War. First the German Karl von Halt: He entered the IOC in 1929. He held the
rank of SA Gruppenführer. After the War he was accused of being a war criminal. He
was saved by Avery Brundage's personal influence. Karl von Halt not only stayed in
the IOC, but was also promoted to The Executive Board in 1957. (In 1951 he became
president of the West-
The story about General Giorgio Vaccaro, an Italian fascist,
sheds more light on the picture of the "glorious history" of the IOC. He stayed in
the Organization in spite of demands by the Italian Olympic Committee that he should
be removed as an embarrassment to post-
Avery Brundage, the leader of the post-
Here are some details, cited by Guttmann, showing Brundage's "moral
purity", on which he insisted while President of the IOC. Avery Brundage was part
of the American Olympic team in 1912 in Stockholm. His most dangerous rival was an
Indian named Jim Thorpe, who was first in the pentathlon. Brundage came in sixth
and left the competition before it ended, incapable of taking the defeat in a sporting
manner. (38) Thorpe had his medals taken away after his triumph, because of the accusation
he played baseball on a semi-
Brundage was the one to introduce Juan Antonio Samaranch to the IOC in 1966, as a man “whom he trusted and loved”. Two years later Samaranch was appointed Chief of Protocol, and in 1970 Brundage introduced him to the Executive Board.
The biggest shortcoming of Vyv Simson’s and Andrew Jennings‘ book about Samaranch, “The Masters of The Rings”, is that it exclusively deals with the sport of our times and starts from a premise that “only a decade ago it was a source of beauty and purity”. Firmly holding to this absurd belief, the authors fail to properly analyze the history of the modern Olympic movement. Without this analysis it is impossible to explain how one of the leading fascists of Spain became the president of the IOC. Had they spent some time investigating the political biography of Avery Brundage they would have realized that Samaranch didn’t win Brundage’s trust by doing him small favours, but precisely because he was an orthodox fascist. Samaranch was a real Brundage man. Brundage knew very well that Samaranch was a high ranking member of the fascist regime in Spain and that he was responsible for bloody oppression in Cataluña. Brundage was not bothered by the fact that Samaranch, as a member of the IOC, publicly displayed his fascist beliefs and wore his fascist uniform while marching in the streets of Barcelona, then went on to speak about Olympic “ideals”. Having this in mind, it becomes clearer how in 1965, of all places, the IOC chose fascist Madrid to hold its general assembly, which was chaired by General Franco!
As the masters of the Olympic movement always liked to point out,
sport and especially the Olympic Games had “nothing to do with politics”. This was,
after all, confirmed by Franco himself. Chairing the IOC assembly, he did not speak
about politics (he offered the American government to set up military bases in Spain)
but about his “loyalty to Olympic ideals”, about “peace”, “international cooperation”…
and for it he was rewarded with a huge ovation from the gentlemen of the IOC. That‘s
the way fascist dictator Franco became, shoulder to shoulder with Coubertin, Baillet-
The “cunning chameleon” Juan Antonio Samaranch realized this in time. By preaching holy Olympic prayers of “peace” and “international cooperation”, this “hundred per cent Francoist”, as he liked to call himself among friends, was transformed into a messenger of peace and welcomed everywhere. After the Olympic Games in Barcelona, the Spanish King decorated Samaranch with the title of Marquise. It seemed that fascist Samaranch, after the Barcelona Games, repaid the debts for his crimes. Citizens of Spain, who lived through the years of the criminal regime, were not deceived by the “cunning chameleon”. For them, as with the rest of the freethinking world, he remained what he always was, a fascist. The “cunning chameleon” changed his colours but his nature stayed the same.
Interestingly enough, Samaranch’s official biography, published by the IOC, does not mention a single word about his long political activity in Spain. Here is an excerpt from this publication, entitled “The Olympic movement”, published in 1984 by IOC:
“Born 1920 in Barcelona. Industrialist, ex-
Vice president and president of National Olympic Committee of Spain between
Barcelona in 1955. Entered IOC in 1966 and was a member of several boards.
As member of the executive committee and vice president he inherits the
position of president of the IOC from lord Killanin in 1980 and has since
been in charge of the Olympic movement.” (40)
In order to deceive the world public and create himself a new image to suit the position he was now occupying, Samaranch omitted from his biography that he was a (fascist) member of the (fascist) parliament (Cortes) of Spain; member of a (fascist) city council in Barcelona; president of the (fascist) regional council of Cataluña, and even that he was appointed minister for sport (by Franco). The IOC propaganda service was like everything else in the IOC under Samaranch’s control. It aimed to create a myth about Samaranch: “He is a decent man who has dedicated his whole life to the Olympic movement” – according to one of the propaganda pamphlets manufactured at the IOC headquarters in Lausanne.
The situation is changing all the more as the obdurate representatives
of totalitarian regimes are being replaced by pragmatic “new boys” who are first
and foremost interested in money. This is logical, for fewer and fewer national flags
and more and more flags of multilateral companies are flying over the Olympic arenas.
The Olympic Games have become a huge hoarding for advertising multinational companies.
In this context the question arises as to the meaning of the famous maxim that “sport
has nothing to do with politics”. For while sport was in the hands of bureaucratic
clans it was constantly stressed that “sport must be cleansed of politics”. This
was the sacred formula to solve all problems. Where are those “humanists” now when
the Olympic gentlemen are literally selling the Olympic Games to capitalist concerns?
What has happened to the “struggle against the manipulation of sport and sportsmen”?
Where is their “freedom-
Today’s Olympic Games have not only lost legitimacy from the point
of view of the humanistic values upon which the Olympic bosses call, but also from
the point of view of the Coubertin’s Olympic idea. Instead of national flags, the
Olympic Games are becoming increasingly dominated by the symbols of capitalist companies;
instead of “a church”, the Olympic Games are becoming a “fairgrounds”; instead of
“the elite” of nations and races, participants are becoming “circus gladiators”;
instead of being “educational” (Coubertin’s religio athletae), sport is becoming
The present day Olympic torch, which was first carried by aristocrats
and then handed over to fascists and then to cold-
x x x
(1) Pierre de Coubertin, "Olympia", In: Pierre de Coubertin, The Olympic Idea, Carl
(2) Baron Pierre de Coubertin, Olympische Erinnerungen, Wilhelm-
(3) Pierre de Coubertin, "The Philosophic Foundation of the Modern Olympics", In: The Olympic Idea, page 130, 131.
(4) Pierre de Coubertin, "Speech by Baron de Coubertin at the Close of the Berlin Olympic Games", Ibidem, page 135, 136.
(5) From: “Internationale Sportrundschau”,n. 7,1936, p.189. In: Jean-
(6) After Hans Joachim Teichler, "Coubertin und das Dritte Reich”, Sportwissenschaft, 1982, 12, page 35, 36.
(7) Ibidem, page 37.
(9) Richard D. Mandell, The Nazi Olympics, Souvenir Press, London,1972, page 147.
(10) Carl Diem, "Olympische Akademie", Dortmund, 1961, page 17-
(11) Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich, MacMillan, New York, 1970, page 70.
(12) Arthur Morse, ibidem, page 156, 157.
(13) Ibidem, page 160.
(14) Teichler, ibidem, page 43.
(16) Ibidem, page 45.
(17) Ibidem, page 52.
(18) Ibidem, page 28.
(19) Ibidem, page 29.
(20) Ibidem, page 29.
(21) Ibidem, page 32, 33.
(22) Ibidem, Morse, 112.
(23) Ibidem, page 112.
(24) Ibidem, page 182.
(25) Ibidem, page 179.
(26) After Peter Hein, "The Politics of Sport and Apartheid", In: Sport, Culture, Ideology, ed. Jennifer Hargreaves, Rutledge, London, 1982, page 233.
(27) Mandell, ibidem, page 236.
(30) Speer, Ibidem, page 72, 73.
(31) Allen Guttmann, The Games Must Go On, Columbia Uni. Press, 1984, pages 101,265,267. (32) Ibidem, pages 101, 267.
(33) Ibidem, page 102, 268.
(34) Ibidem, page 92, 264.
(35) Ibidem, page 96.
(36) Ibidem, page 254.
(37) Ibidem, page 74.
(38) Ibidem, page 27.
(39) Ibidem, page 49.
(40) Le Comité International Olympique, Lausanne, Suisse, 1984, pp 25.
About the same issue see also: Jean-
x x x